Educating Germany

Here for your reading pleasure is my transcript of Dagmar Neubronner's interview with the BBC's Outlook World Radio Programme.

BBC Outlook Interview

Tuesday 25th March 2008

Home Schooling in Germany

OUTLOOK

In the German City State of Bremen, Dagmar Neubronner and her husband have taken on the education authorities in their legal fight to be allowed to home school their sons, Moritz(11) and Thomas, who's (8).

A fight thats already led to Dagmar's family having to go into periods of exile to prevent the boys being taken away by social services because they won't attend school.

With other couples in Germany also wanting to 'homeschool' their children, the Neubronners case is getting a lot of attention.

All 4 Neubronners are currently at home in Bremen and from there Dagmar told me what happened when her boys started school.

DAGMAR NEUBRONNER

Our elder son really got ill and he lost his joy in life and he even stated that he didn't like life any longer and he wanted to go back into heaven because he didn't like it here. And he was in a very bad mood, and it was kind of depression. And when we took him out of school it was in the first place, just to save his wellbeing and then step by step we experienced how wonderful our kids thrive while not going to school and while learning at home.

OUTLOOK

Moritz your eldest didn't like his school, what about Thomas, your second son, who is about 3 years younger, did he have the same problem?

DAGMAR NEUBRONNER

He had the same problem but in a different way. Thomas started to teach himself reading when he was 3 years old and when he was old enough to go to school he already read books. We told the teachers about this and they promised us to give him advanced training, and they did.

And for a few weeks he worked with these training units but then it became boring for him because he didn't see any sense in it. And he said Why shall I go to school ? I already am able to read and to write and I don't see the sense and I would prefer to live at home again and do my own projects and my own research and my own reading and so on.

OUTLOOK

So when you and your husband decided your boys had to be home-schooled. I expect you knew that in Germany this is not actually legally allowed. So what did you do? Did you go and ask the authorities for permission?

DAGMAR NEUBRONNER

At first we tried to talk to the authorities and we thought that our arguments were so valid that they should convince the authorities.

OUTLOOK

And the response was what?

DAGMAR NEUBRONNER

The response was 'no', 'not at all' , 'no way'.

OUTLOOK

If you stayed in Germany and refused to send your sons to an accepted school what possible legal consequences would you and your husband face?

DAGMAR NEUBRONNER

We already faced a lot of legal consequences because we stayed in Germany and refused to force our children into school for more than 2 years.

We faced more than 7000 Euro fine, penalty fine, and since we are free-lance publishers with a low income we weren't willing and weren't able to pay this, so they sent the bailiff to our house.

The bailiff searched our house and found that there were no impoundable possessions and then they blocked our accounts and they even blocked our company accounts of our small publishing house, so we weren't able to pay our bills and to do anything. We were totally blocked.

This was not the point where we decided to go abroad but the point was when they threatened with further means of forcing us, and since they already had sent the bailiff to our house and already had blocked our accounts, further means was only left jail and taking away custody for our children.

OUTLOOK

So the situation as I understand it at the moment , is that you are all in Bremen at the moment because you are on holiday, but your husband and the kids tend to spend their time outside Germany, but you are still officially in Bremen so you can pursue the legal case to be allowed homeschool in Germany.

DAGMAR NEUBRONNER

This is exactly the situation The children and my husband are living abroad and I of course visit them and they do visit me too, but I stay here because I have to run the publishing house and I want to be able to continue the legal processes.

OUTLOOK

Now while all this goes on, and obviously that does mean for your family for your two boys, a lot of upheaval. How aware are they of all this? How much impact is this having on your two boys at the centre of this dispute?

DAGMAR NEUBRONNER

Most of the time until the beginning of January it didn't have much impact on them it didn't have much impact on them as they were living happily freely at home and learning and so on.

When the situation came that whether we had to decide to leave the country or to send them to school - this was shortly before christmas, we asked them to go to school for 10 days, This was a test for them and for us but after a few days they both came and said "We are so sorry and we are really sad about this but if we imagine to go to school for the next 10 years or 8 years, okay then, we prefer going abroad."

OUTLOOK

Now this dispute with the authorities in Bremen and the wider authorities has mean a lot of upheaval for you and your family. It's meant going abroad, it's meant moving around, has all that been worth it so far, do you think?

DAGMAR NEUBRONNER

If you had asked me two years ago I would have said, no, we are not ready to do this.

But now the longer we live this way and the longer we see how much our children learn and how happily they learn our readiness to offer other things to make this possible is growing all the time.

OUTLOOK

So there you are now Dagmar you are trying to fight this case through the courts. Your husband and sons for the time being will have to kind of spend most of the time outside Germany. It looks like that could be the case for a few more years. If you loose this case are you just going to have to accept it and live with it?

DAGMAR NEUBRONNER

I think probably what we will do then is accept that we can not live freely in Germany at this time. Our choice is not to force our children to school or to let them go.

Our choice is to live freely with our children in Germany or outside Germany. This is the decision we will have to make if we loose this next court trial

OUTLOOK

Talking to me on an internet connection from her home in Northern Germany was Dagmar Neubronner, who's fighting a legal case to be allowed to homeschool her two sons in the state of Bremen.

And we got an official response from Manfred Hubert who is a spokesman for Bremen's Educational Authority.

MANFRED HUBERT

Compulsory school attendance is seen by all German states as one of the true accomplishments of the the last century.

It initially meant that everybody had the right to attend a school and this right to attend a state funded school should not be removed from a child in our opinion.

For this reason we thinking that compulsory school attendance should be a basic right for all children.

We think homeschooling is detrimental because it leads to social segregation.

Children can't compare themselves to others in the class room and can't compare those things that you learn from the day to day interaction with other pupils .

Of course parents can impart knowledge but knowledge is not the only thing that you get from the school. There is also the concept of social learning and that's something that's lost in home education.

Also we don't want to open the door for certain groups in society to withdraw from school attendance.

OUTLOOK

And that was Manfred Hubert who's a spokesman for the Educational Authorities in Bremen, in Northern Germany.